My god… I think the penny dropped. Well – of course! So look here, grampy: suddenly the realization fell on me that if anyone must share the fate of termination then it is those people who withdrawal from life. It is as follow: some men retreat from life irreversibly, right? What then happen with them from the point of view of nature – that is – the cosmos? Where are they belong? Where are they going to? Where have they come from? What purpose do they serve in existence? Imagine a man – alone in a universe. Living, but without ever talking or communicating with anyone, no family ties, no wife, children, occupation, no advancement toward anything, no aims… only trying to be present to themselves always (I mean, reach ‘enlightenment’, no?). So it is understandable if this category would terminate out of history. That’s exactly what they are doing during their life anyway, don’t they?

Then we have the big mystery, what is the grand total here in this puzzle game of possible paths and mysterious possibilities? That is what I, and the rest of us here, want to know. It should be a direction contrary to what is described above. Where one case tries to escape life, another tries to… what would be a “realization of the will”…? another case tries to PENETRATE and CHANGE life! he tries to act on life FROM WITHIN. His existence within the cosmos becomes a part of his project to build himself up, he integrates it in his path instead. And since he had always been an integral part of life invisible is its outlook. No sudden abruptions here, but gradual transformation. From the point of view of the cosmos, this is at least as out of place and disturbing like the man who tries to cease himself (through necessary of course). Obviously we are talking here about a different kind of experiment to realize your possibilities.

We have left with two more perspectives with which to observe the issue of the ultimate path: the relation to time and the relation to will. You seem to indicate the fourth way path is to be carried in time, which mean in an ordinary existence within life. Is that possible? not “have we factual examples?” but rather: can it be accomplished practically with ordinary men? I believe it can, I see no inherent objection to that suggestion, even if we don’t have examples for that as yet. But who am I to shoot such a wild guess when I hardly grasp what I am philosophizing about (to be honest)? And yet, even if it is possible, such a man must at the same time stand outside time, because, as we all know, in a higher state of consciousness you get another feeling and sensation of ‘time’ and yourself. this is related to soul/self, kant’s noumenon/phenomenon (the suggestion that time and space are illusionary) about which you wrote in another post, ‘Bennett on two ways’. I guess this is the meaning of a path ‘outside time’?

What is that “will” finally and how can we realize it? The answer to this should be the truly precious diamond in this shrouded realm of mysteries, this is the sly man’s way, the exclusive key to unlock the buried secrets of the rumored ‘fourth way’ and all other viable ways. Or is it?

maybe a legitimate path exists within the gurdjieffiana? maybe some (or many) are just plodding along in it optimistically without getting anywhere.

others are drawn to it and get caught up in one or other of its toxic streams, i.e. gold, or horn or whoever. at least some of these people get more-or-less seriously essence-damaged.

what is essence damage? i don’t know. my experience is as if someone ripped my ‘soul’ (for lack of a better word) out of my body and crumpled it up and threw it out as worthless trash.

i am pretty sure that the people who harmed me would say to this that essence-damage is not possible because the essence is beyond and outside time, exists before life and continues after it. blah-de-blah-de-blah.

they think (?) they are destroying the ego and that this is a good thing to do. they believe that breaking (shattering) the ego will liberate ‘essence’ to develop and evolve the person. the resultant suffering (from ego-breaking) is supposed to produce from essence, the soul… ??? the pearl of great price.

i am not always convinced that gold and co are maliciously wrecking lives for fun or sport. but at the very least, imho, they are wrong. and for some reason whenever people talk about ‘will’ i cringe.