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	<title>Comments on: Idries Shah and Robert Graves: from Garrard&#8217;s A Book of Verse</title>
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	<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/</link>
	<description>Debriefing the Gurdjieff work</description>
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		<title>By: Burt</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-37704</link>
		<dc:creator>Burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-37704</guid>
		<description>Personally this sort of kerfuffel is uninteresting to me.  People trying to put people into categories.  I prefer to take Rumi&#039;s advice: Don&#039;t look at my outer form, take what&#039;s in my hand.  I have found Idries Shah&#039;s writings to be filled with insight and common sense and continue to find deeper meanings in the Graves Shah translation of Khayyam.  So what do I care where they came from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally this sort of kerfuffel is uninteresting to me.  People trying to put people into categories.  I prefer to take Rumi&#8217;s advice: Don&#8217;t look at my outer form, take what&#8217;s in my hand.  I have found Idries Shah&#8217;s writings to be filled with insight and common sense and continue to find deeper meanings in the Graves Shah translation of Khayyam.  So what do I care where they came from?</p>
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		<title>By: nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35851</link>
		<dc:creator>nemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
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If comments don&#039;t appear right away that is probably the reason. You can write another comment alerting me to what happened. Otherwise it might be a day or two before I examine the spam box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your comment was held in moderation as spam (due to an embedded link probably).<br />
If comments don&#8217;t appear right away that is probably the reason. You can write another comment alerting me to what happened. Otherwise it might be a day or two before I examine the spam box.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gurdjieff Con &#187; More on Shah/Graves (from Jim Buck)</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35850</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gurdjieff Con &#187; More on Shah/Graves (from Jim Buck)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35850</guid>
		<description>[...] Comment on I. Shah/R. Graves post Jim Buck said, 21.02.10 at 1:26 pm · Moore invariably declines invitations to debate, ‘too busy’ he says. However, he does find time to tinker with the article as its inexactitudes are exposed. For instance, he accuses Idries Shah of conflating Mevlevi and Bektashi dervishes—the implication being that the Bektashi do not dance. The Bektashi are in fact reknowned for their Kirklar Semahi: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Comment on I. Shah/R. Graves post Jim Buck said, 21.02.10 at 1:26 pm · Moore invariably declines invitations to debate, ‘too busy’ he says. However, he does find time to tinker with the article as its inexactitudes are exposed. For instance, he accuses Idries Shah of conflating Mevlevi and Bektashi dervishes—the implication being that the Bektashi do not dance. The Bektashi are in fact reknowned for their Kirklar Semahi: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35849</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35849</guid>
		<description>Moore invariably declines invitations to debate, ‘too busy’ he says. However, he does find time to tinker with the article as its inexactitudes are exposed. For instance, he accuses Idries Shah of conflating Mevlevi and Bektashi dervishes—the implication being that the Bektashi do not dance. The Bektashi are in fact reknowned for their Kirklar Semahi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6731nThTqCM

As for the slanders against Iqbal Ali Shah’s veracity…well, frankly, anyone who takes the British Foreign office as an authoritative source ought, at least read a few John Le Carre books (better still, watch an hour or two of the Iraq war inquiry on BBC 24).

The notion that Idries Shah (as opposed to Omar Ali Shah) damaged Robert Graves reputation is highly questionable. Read a few biographies of Graves; it should then become clear to you that, as far as the English establishment was concerned, Graves was always an outsider. He was “half German, half Irish”– a particularly unfortunate stigmatisation during the second decade of the 20th century. His war memoir ‘Goodbye To All That’ is now regarded as a classic, but was regarded, by many of his comrades-in-arms, as a catalogue of betrayal.

Personally, I admire Grave’s poetry; but he was not in the same league as Sassoon and Owen (both of whom Graves despised for their homosexuality). He might have aspired to be Poet Laureate, but I suspect that he would have been at best a contender. For many years he had made his home in Majorca; and there were persistent rumours that his hospitality to luminaries of the counterculture was a cover for intelligence gathering; whatever the truth of that allegation, he was viewed with suspicion by many on both sides of the UK political divide. Tories saw him as: a bounder; queer, maybe. Reds saw him as an effete, toff. Whatever tiny dip in royalties he may have suffered, as a result of his partnership with Omar Ali Shah, was more than offset by the enormous revival in his fortunes which followed the BBC’s serialisation of ‘I Cladius’. It is for the latter, and also his war poetry, that Graves is now remembered—except of course by hypocrites like Moore, whose crocodile tears, for a damaged reputation, is accompanied by an eagerness to stir the teacup whenever a chance to attack Idries Shah presents itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moore invariably declines invitations to debate, ‘too busy’ he says. However, he does find time to tinker with the article as its inexactitudes are exposed. For instance, he accuses Idries Shah of conflating Mevlevi and Bektashi dervishes—the implication being that the Bektashi do not dance. The Bektashi are in fact reknowned for their Kirklar Semahi:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6731nThTqCM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6731nThTqCM</a></p>
<p>As for the slanders against Iqbal Ali Shah’s veracity…well, frankly, anyone who takes the British Foreign office as an authoritative source ought, at least read a few John Le Carre books (better still, watch an hour or two of the Iraq war inquiry on BBC 24).</p>
<p>The notion that Idries Shah (as opposed to Omar Ali Shah) damaged Robert Graves reputation is highly questionable. Read a few biographies of Graves; it should then become clear to you that, as far as the English establishment was concerned, Graves was always an outsider. He was “half German, half Irish”– a particularly unfortunate stigmatisation during the second decade of the 20th century. His war memoir ‘Goodbye To All That’ is now regarded as a classic, but was regarded, by many of his comrades-in-arms, as a catalogue of betrayal.</p>
<p>Personally, I admire Grave’s poetry; but he was not in the same league as Sassoon and Owen (both of whom Graves despised for their homosexuality). He might have aspired to be Poet Laureate, but I suspect that he would have been at best a contender. For many years he had made his home in Majorca; and there were persistent rumours that his hospitality to luminaries of the counterculture was a cover for intelligence gathering; whatever the truth of that allegation, he was viewed with suspicion by many on both sides of the UK political divide. Tories saw him as: a bounder; queer, maybe. Reds saw him as an effete, toff. Whatever tiny dip in royalties he may have suffered, as a result of his partnership with Omar Ali Shah, was more than offset by the enormous revival in his fortunes which followed the BBC’s serialisation of ‘I Cladius’. It is for the latter, and also his war poetry, that Graves is now remembered—except of course by hypocrites like Moore, whose crocodile tears, for a damaged reputation, is accompanied by an eagerness to stir the teacup whenever a chance to attack Idries Shah presents itself.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gurdjieff Con &#187; More on Idries Shah</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35689</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gurdjieff Con &#187; More on Idries Shah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35689</guid>
		<description>[...] Comment on Garrard post mybrainisafleamarket said, 03.01.10 at 9:06 pm · Still Trying After All These Years [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Comment on Garrard post mybrainisafleamarket said, 03.01.10 at 9:06 pm · Still Trying After All These Years [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mybrainisafleamarket</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35687</link>
		<dc:creator>mybrainisafleamarket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 03:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35687</guid>
		<description>Still Trying After All These Years

States is First Edition, December 16, 2009

Notes on an address by the writer and Sufi teacher Idries Shah, givento “New Alpha” class leaders, at Langton House, Langton Green,near Tunbridge Wells, Kent in England, on 14th January 1979.

An introduction is being penned by Martin Mathieson and asecond edition will be issued when the introduction is made available.First edition (without intro): 16 December, 2009 No revisionsSher Point Publications, UKin association withsarmouni.dyndns.org

(Beginning of excerpt)

”As a further example of how things have gone “haywire”, Shah said that he now even has an “imposter”, someone who claims to be him and who does things that he will not do.

People who (actually) want to learn do not display compulsive imitation; etc. – the signs are very obvious if they manifest – it doesn&#039;t take“eyes” to spot them.

Groupings: There are far more people studying our ideas than wereever authorised to do. ...(end of excerpt).

End note #5. “My father [Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah] taught me to listen toconversations and to try, by thinking very quickly, to anticipate subconsciously exactly what the other person was going to say” 

(Notes on an address by the writer and Sufi teacher Idries Shah, given to “New Alpha” class leaders in 1979.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Cekh3EBedxoJ:http://www.sarmouni.dyndns.org/writing/idries-shah-addresses-new-alpha.pdf+Idries+shah+imposter&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still Trying After All These Years</p>
<p>States is First Edition, December 16, 2009</p>
<p>Notes on an address by the writer and Sufi teacher Idries Shah, givento “New Alpha” class leaders, at Langton House, Langton Green,near Tunbridge Wells, Kent in England, on 14th January 1979.</p>
<p>An introduction is being penned by Martin Mathieson and asecond edition will be issued when the introduction is made available.First edition (without intro): 16 December, 2009 No revisionsSher Point Publications, UKin association withsarmouni.dyndns.org</p>
<p>(Beginning of excerpt)</p>
<p>”As a further example of how things have gone “haywire”, Shah said that he now even has an “imposter”, someone who claims to be him and who does things that he will not do.</p>
<p>People who (actually) want to learn do not display compulsive imitation; etc. – the signs are very obvious if they manifest – it doesn&#8217;t take“eyes” to spot them.</p>
<p>Groupings: There are far more people studying our ideas than wereever authorised to do. &#8230;(end of excerpt).</p>
<p>End note #5. “My father [Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah] taught me to listen toconversations and to try, by thinking very quickly, to anticipate subconsciously exactly what the other person was going to say” </p>
<p>(Notes on an address by the writer and Sufi teacher Idries Shah, given to “New Alpha” class leaders in 1979.</p>
<p><a href="http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Cekh3EBedxoJ:http://www.sarmouni.dyndns.org/writing/idries-shah-addresses-new-alpha.pdf+Idries+shah+imposter&#038;hl=en&#038;ct=clnk" rel="nofollow">http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Cekh3EBedxoJ:http://www.sarmouni.dyndns.org/writing/idries-shah-addresses-new-alpha.pdf+Idries+shah+imposter&#038;hl=en&#038;ct=clnk</a></p>
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		<title>By: mybrainisafleamarket</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35609</link>
		<dc:creator>mybrainisafleamarket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35609</guid>
		<description>Yet more debate on Shah, pro and con, here. 

Note that one pro-Shah person eventually, toward the end, suggested

&quot;20:03, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) 

I propose that this page should be removed since it seems to have a attracted a lot of people who have a problem with Shah and therefore may present an unnalanced view.&quot;

MBTF invites  readers to go to this URL and read the text of this debate, which someone suggested &#039;be removed.&#039;

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:348n7oxiw28J:http://www.indopedia.org/Talk:Idries_Shah.html+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;strip=1

The writer above seems to think that &#039;Schools&#039;, &#039;Doctrines&#039;, &#039;orders&#039;, historical patterns of &#039;influence&#039; and so on are of great importance though in my view these things did not concern Shah much. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet more debate on Shah, pro and con, here. </p>
<p>Note that one pro-Shah person eventually, toward the end, suggested</p>
<p>&#8220;20:03, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC) </p>
<p>I propose that this page should be removed since it seems to have a attracted a lot of people who have a problem with Shah and therefore may present an unnalanced view.&#8221;</p>
<p>MBTF invites  readers to go to this URL and read the text of this debate, which someone suggested &#8216;be removed.&#8217;</p>
<p><a href="http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:348n7oxiw28J:http://www.indopedia.org/Talk:Idries_Shah.html+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1" rel="nofollow">http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:348n7oxiw28J:http://www.indopedia.org/Talk:Idries_Shah.html+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1</a></p>
<p>The writer above seems to think that &#8216;Schools&#8217;, &#8216;Doctrines&#8217;, &#8216;orders&#8217;, historical patterns of &#8216;influence&#8217; and so on are of great importance though in my view these things did not concern Shah much. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: mybrainisafleamarket</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35608</link>
		<dc:creator>mybrainisafleamarket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35608</guid>
		<description>(note) The quote above is just a small bit of a much longer article and very detailed annotated bibliography, drawing from many and diverse sources.

This is another type of bibliography. It gives an idea of the networks of persons and authors, living and death that form this &#039;scene&#039; and sub-sections of this &#039;scene&#039;.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:EBIW6x1Sen8J:http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142857369/index.php%3FMMN_position%3D56:56&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;strip=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(note) The quote above is just a small bit of a much longer article and very detailed annotated bibliography, drawing from many and diverse sources.</p>
<p>This is another type of bibliography. It gives an idea of the networks of persons and authors, living and death that form this &#8216;scene&#8217; and sub-sections of this &#8216;scene&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href="http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:EBIW6x1Sen8J:http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142857369/index.php%3FMMN_position%3D56:56&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1" rel="nofollow">http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:EBIW6x1Sen8J:http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142857369/index.php%3FMMN_position%3D56:56&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: mybrainisafleamarket</title>
		<link>http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/2009/12/13/idries-shah-and-robert-graves-from-garrards-a-book-of-verse/comment-page-1/#comment-35607</link>
		<dc:creator>mybrainisafleamarket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gurdjieff-con.net/?p=1371#comment-35607</guid>
		<description>Author Idries Shah, Ichazo, Lilly, etc are mentioned here. (text only version)

&#039;The Enneagram: A Developmental Study&quot; by James Moore first published in 1987 and updated 2004

&quot;The sea of faith, whose ‘melancholy, long withdrawing roar’ 1 was evoked metaphorically by the elegiac Victorian poet Matthew Arnold, is sweeping back, but in a hundred strange modalities. And though its waves are ostentatious, its eddies and undertows are obscure; and the charting of its cross-currents – these admixtures among religions old and new – is aided by certain discrete ‘marker-buoys’. This paper examples one, which – moored decades ago in the esoteric deep – has been swept leeward into the frothy shallows of pseudo-Sufism, ARICA, Transpersonal Psychology and liberal Catholicism. 

&#039;Our chosen marker is Gurdjieff’s problematic ‘enneagram’. George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff (c.1866-1949) was a writer, explorer, choreographer, psychologist, composer, physician, polyglot, entrepreneur, and spiritual teacher, who utterly eludes simplistic categorisation. &quot;

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:1hQuCMoryWMJ:http://www.scribd.com/doc/5988914/James-MooreThe-Enneagram-a-Developmental-Study+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&amp;hl=en&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;strip=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Author Idries Shah, Ichazo, Lilly, etc are mentioned here. (text only version)</p>
<p>&#8216;The Enneagram: A Developmental Study&#8221; by James Moore first published in 1987 and updated 2004</p>
<p>&#8220;The sea of faith, whose ‘melancholy, long withdrawing roar’ 1 was evoked metaphorically by the elegiac Victorian poet Matthew Arnold, is sweeping back, but in a hundred strange modalities. And though its waves are ostentatious, its eddies and undertows are obscure; and the charting of its cross-currents – these admixtures among religions old and new – is aided by certain discrete ‘marker-buoys’. This paper examples one, which – moored decades ago in the esoteric deep – has been swept leeward into the frothy shallows of pseudo-Sufism, ARICA, Transpersonal Psychology and liberal Catholicism. </p>
<p>&#8216;Our chosen marker is Gurdjieff’s problematic ‘enneagram’. George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff (c.1866-1949) was a writer, explorer, choreographer, psychologist, composer, physician, polyglot, entrepreneur, and spiritual teacher, who utterly eludes simplistic categorisation. &#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:1hQuCMoryWMJ:http://www.scribd.com/doc/5988914/James-MooreThe-Enneagram-a-Developmental-Study+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1" rel="nofollow">http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:1hQuCMoryWMJ:http://www.scribd.com/doc/5988914/James-MooreThe-Enneagram-a-Developmental-Study+%22idries+shah%22+enneagram&#038;hl=en&#038;ie=UTF-8&#038;strip=1</a></p>
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