Reading the Elst piece a rising suspicion suggests to me the obvious: the attack on the poor Dravidians as politicizing the AIT/OIT debate, etc, etc, is really a desperate effort to maintain the Hindu caste system when all the indications are starting to show the sad reality that Hinduism is a fraud that coopted the real Indian tradition.
Small wonder the Dravidian culture is mad as hell.
Elst’s support of Brahminism and its elitism against the protests against caste in Indian politics speaks for itself and shows the agenda he is caught up in. I think that this obvious bias should make us look carefully at the (very poor) case for OIT, and be vigilant toward demands for a post-Hinduistic Indian spirituality of the future.
Indians should pause and reflect here: they are in danger of losing their whole tradition just at the point where it could be revived in a very robust form beyond the distortions of the Hindu system, and its Indo-European confusions, so ancient, and near to discrediting their immense spiritual heritage.
Indian spiritual tradition doesn’t need Vedism, or the caste questions now so perverted and endemic to the false traditions of the Hindu stream.
I fail to see why Elst would support such terrible propaganda with the OIT lies.
It is time to study the various OIT claims and texts, starting with Elst’s material. All of a sudden we see that the claims are false, and we have but to examine the various texts to see where they go wrong.
They all have one insuperable problem: Vedic Sanskrit five thousand years BCE is impossible.
The fake James has been around today: note that his misuse of the Old James’ email is illegal, and an symptom of what the Gold gang is like.
.2.1. The AIT and the “anti-national forces”
Elst sanctimoniously denounces the AIT lore, even as he provides the direct evidence of Dravidian discontent, etc…
The moral indignation here is quite misplaced. The Indo-European cooptation of a native Indian tradition speaks loud and clear through this. The real stance of indignation would obviously complain of the false distortion of classic Indian spirituality by Aryan propaganda.
Here is the link to K. Elst’s webpage on the AIT debate: http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/
Since he has replied to me at Cybalist (although they haven’t published my reply yet) it is useful to go over the material Elst has put together to see where the problem lies. His arguments on the surface seem powerful, but there is an absurdity at the heart of the attacks on AIT.
The astronomical lore in Vedic literature provides elements of an absolute chronology in a consistent way. For what it is worth, this corpus of astronomical indications suggests that the Rg-Veda was completed in the 4th millennium AD, that the core text of the Mahabharata was composed at the end of that millennium, and that the Brahmanas and Sutras are products of the high Harappan period towards the end of the 3rd millennium BC. This corpus of evidence is hard to reconcile with the AIT, and has been standing as a growing challenge to the AIT defenders for two centuries.
The problem here is very simple: we can not easily speak of Vedic Sanskrit at such an early date. Period.
So what is the argument exactly?
Let me note again that a fake ‘James’ using the now disconnected email address of the old James has been posting comments here. Since the original James wasn’t banned, the system will allow this trick for a while.
Let me note that this is typical of Gold students, who think nothing of harming others and doing anything they please against others’ will.
Spiritual rape is Gold’s specialty.
I didn’t quite respond to all your interesting post. Some of these issues are off topic for this list. But I will answer, and put the material at The Gurdjieff Con if it is beyond the scope of this list or the moderator doesn’t want to get into this kind of fracas.
Let me say that many are now a generation after the recent New Age movement, and hold the Hindu tradition in a fine contempt even as they avail themselves of the hidden riches of the Indian tradition. I don’t have to listen to sophistical idiots who think the Code of Manu and its hierarchical nonsense represents the real Indian tradition. Read the rest of this entry »
Email response re AIT/OIT from Dr. Koenraad Elst and my reply from Cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Thank you for your reply.[see below flap] I have learned a few things here, which is that in broad strokes something might be true, but then we add details that won’t work. Thus I have no real idea about whether the Puranas show evidence of translation (etc..) and to cite Danielou’s idea there precipitated possible deserved charges of speculation. Similar pitfalls surround Indus archaeology. I can make my point without deciding about the Indus. I just don’t know. This ‘extras’ precipitate chaotification of the basic simple idea, that, pace. Jainism, Indic spirituality goes back a long way, and it is hard to take Vedic Sanskrit along for the ride.
But what we are talking about here is something that is doubtfully speculative, the great age of the Indic tradition. I will accept the critique of speculative notions on a case basis, but let me note my late discovery in a short life that the entire history of Hinduism is mostly speculative form of thought, based on the false sequence: Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, etc… That sequence makes no sense. And, as I recall, through all the years that I believed that history, I also assumed, why I am not sure, but instinctively, that the Jain tradition was older. That’s a contradiction that is easily resolved by Danielou’s perspective, minus the add ons.
We are confronted by several likelihoods: Read the rest of this entry »
Com’on email from Buzzflash: we will check out this book in a few days, to see if it adds up.
“In this exquisite book of extraordinary lives, we see that the sacred survives in India amidst all its contradictions and modernity. William Dalrymple dazzles us with stories of how a deeper reality stokes the fire of life in the recesses of our souls. These are stories of real people in postmodern India. By peering into the secret passages of their psyches, we learn more about our own self, our fantasies, our shadows, our longings, our hidden potential.” —Deepak Chopra
Nine Lives: In Search of the Sacred in Modern India [Hardcover]
By William Dalrymple Read the rest of this entry »
This tragicomedy over the fake ‘James’ is illustrative of the problem with Gold’s so-called school, and finally with Gurdjieffianity in general.
As this episode makes clear Gold and his student imitators are dishonest and completely untrustworthy at all points.
In fact, Gold is fixated on the ‘Judas’ question (cf. the recent books/literature catching up with the issue of Judas as a special disciple), and it corrupts the entire circumstance of his so-called (non-existent) teaching.
I can’t think of a single episode to do with Gold and his school that wasn’t a betrayal, a deception, a cuinning lie, and worse, voodoo, black magic, attempts to influence the unconscious of others, etc, etc…
Again, I can’t think of a single exception. In every case, there was a problem.
Naturally, it becomes essential to void relations completely.
I hope others will snap out of it, given the warning here.
Behind The Gurdjieff Con lies the quagmire of Tibetan spiritual politics. I recomment Pali Buddhism, as a transit study, beyond Buddhism, which is dying.
The original “James” was antagonized by the Shadow of the Dalai Lama: http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/Contents.htm
Fair or not.
This material creates a dilemma. It points to something important, then exaggerates and slanders.
The research needs to be done all over again.
But the Tibetan option is passing away, and Western students need to be wary here, and especially not get confused by the Dalai Lama.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/jun/21/dalai-lama-armed-forces-day-message: The Dalai Lama on violenceThe Dalai Lama’s message for Armed Forces Day may surprise those who assume him to be a pacifist